Why do I do this to myself?

[outsdr]

I have SO MUCH I have to do tonight during my shift.

So, of course, I'm arguing on the internet.

*sigh*

It all started with this picture ...



I've seen this photo, and many others like, numerous times before. Every time I do, it makes my blood boil.

Now, I only saw it this time because a friend of mine, who I love dearly and is a great person, made a comment about it that showed up on my FaceBook feed. Here are those comments:

CW: damn good question your dad my granddad learnd english so he could get by in this country why can't a bunch of ILLEGAL aliens do the same it just might make it harder to catch the bastards

MY FRIEND: Maybe because we are a country on immigrants. Immigrants that are generally poor and it costs money to learn a new language.

Joy: Back when my Father and Mother came to US, there were NO classes offered to learn English You just did it IF You wanted to live in US the language is English Learn it

MY FRIEND: Did you know English is a category 5 language? On a 1 to 5 scale where 5 is the hardest

CW: you don't need money to learn all you need is desire and a library card

J: Thank you CW!

MY FRIEND: Have you learned another language or tried to survive on your wits in a country whose language you don't speak?

CW: yes i lived in germany for three years and south korea for thirteen mounths where i taught korean soldiers how to do logarythms and since you will soon ask i spent 8 years in the us army reaching the rank of staff seargent

MY FRIEND: Then you should be sympathetic I would think.

K: i for one agree, millions of immigrants have come to this country, learned the language either by being around english speaking people or by desire to be able to communicate better, LEARN the language or keep a translator with you at all times. Having to go thru prompts to be able to speak to english speaking people when it's the language widely spoken is ridiculous!!!! Soliders go to other countries ALL THE DAMN time and have to adapt to their enviroments and learn what they have to learn to survive there. If you choose to come to this country you should do the same, no sympathy for those wanting to be here but not adapt!

J: Thank you Kathie

K: very welcome, frustrating that someone thinks what's been going on for decades should change because someone is unwilling to adapt. My husband spent 4 yrs in Germany and speaks it well enough to communicate with other Germans, spent a yr in Korea and learned enough to communicate. Hell, I am half German and he knows more German than I do. I work/have worked with lots of other nationalities who have learned enough to communicate. It's pure laziness if they don't learn it. they can continue to speak their native tongue but learn enough english and understand it enough to communicate or keep a translator! I should not have to learn another language to speak to people in America! IF I learn another language it's by choice and DESIRE!!!!!!!!

MY FRIEND: That's all fine and good but it comes off as sheer arrogance when Americans shout, "learn English or get the hell out."

Now, I wanted to be supportice of my friend, of course, but I didn't feel it was right to just jump in randomly on a post from someone who has no idea who I am. There's a group I'm a part of on FB (One of those many "slogan groups" that isn't really active, just kind of a badge of agreement between like-minded people), so I swiped their name and made a picture and posted it on his wall:



And then it started ....

ME => MY FRIEND: I made you something:

ME:
‎‎"You're in America; speak English!"
America does not have any official language.

"Only illegal immigrants don't speak English."
I one knew an illegal immigrant … from Scotland. He spoke perfect English.

"Damn foreigners I can't understand what they say."
I can't understand what most people from Boston say … does that make them foreigners?

"You don't need money to learn all you need is desire and a library card"
If you don't know the language yet, how are you supposed to find the library, especially if when you call, everything is in English?

Bottom line … CW is an idiot, a bigot, and an asshole.

ME:  While I could see the "discussion" you were having, I didn't feel like it would be appropriate if I just jumped in without warning.

MY FRIEND: Probably best. Those are my mom's family.

ME: Ouch.

CH:  What I want to know is when English classes started being offered in America since there were NO English classes when our illegal alien ancestors came here. None. None English classes anywhere. At all.

MY FRIEND: My people's arrogance makes me facepalm.

RR: ‎@YOU- I think your library theory is bunk...I'm pretty sure "Where is the library" is the first sentence learned in any foreign language class.

And every time I call Quebec, I know to hit 9 for English; not a big deal.

ME: It's nice of Quebec to offer that choice. I guess they're not assholes.

JW: I'm pretty sure all of our immigrant ancestors learned English and took the proper steps to become legal citizens.

CH: My ancestors spoke English because they were from the Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. I have no idea if they ever became legal, and I don't know how you can possibly say you're sure they all did. Where is the magic line that was drawn where our ancestors were doing everything right and suddenly a whole new generation (not us! Our people were perfect!) did everything wrong? I can say for a fact that my family did things to get by that many of them now look down on in other immigrant (or second, third generation) families. (Having more kids than they could afford - in their case for religious reasons - and having to get government assistance to support them.) But I'm pretty sure that's how the cycle goes. People who were discriminated against (in my case, Irish Catholics) turn around and do the same once they're out of the fire.

JW:  My ancestors went through Ellis Island, they didn't commit any crimes to come here. I think it's pretty simple, there's a process to become a citizen, people do it every day.

CH: I completely agree that people who immigrate here should do so legally.

PM:  It's completely reasonable to be frustrated by the fact that people don't take the time to learn English. It's also reasonable that businesses wanna do business with people who speak, say, Spanish.
 
What doesn't seem reasonable is to expect our government to print official documents in other languages; though, to be fair, the post doesn't mention government specifically. Though it does play on that meme.

ME: When our government does not have an official language, why is it a problem to provide official documents in other languages than the one that is predominantly spoken? Of course, a line should be drawn somewhere, or we'll see 1040EZ forms in Latin. So then ...

"Spanish is the second most used language in the United States. There are more Spanish speakers in the United States than there are speakers of Chinese, French, German, Italian, Hawaiian, and the Native American languages combined." (Yes, it's wikipedia, but that's faster than tracking down my own source.)

So the government provides documents and services to the two largest language groups it represents. What's the problem?

Now, it is true, by learning the predominant language the person for whom English is a second language will be able to get by more easily. But not as easily as they will be able to get by if they are able to use their FIRST language, of course- it's the path of least resistance for the brain.

And to think that people magically are no longer discriminated against because they've learned English is naive- I guarantee the stronger a persons accent (as well as what TYPE of accent), the higher the level of discrimination a person (immigrant illegal or otherwise, natural born citizen raised in a home where English was a second language or otherwise) will face.

ME:  The xenophobic anger that pressing a number on a phone call to be able to progress in a specific language is utterly mindblowing to me.

PM: It's because we want, we embrace, folks of nations to come to America and BE American. We want them to assimilate into our culture.

There's a difference in not understanding a how a person feels and then calling them an asshole for it. One seeks to come to some form of agreement, the other is, well, it's a lot like being an asshole.

ME: What the majority seem to want is to only accept those who are just like themselves. Embracing people of other cultures includes making them as welcome as possible; providing convenient means of communication is just part of the welcoming process. Demanding they give up their language and culture to become "assimilated" into the larger whole is not. That's not welcoming; that's fucking terrifying.

There's a difference between recognizing bigotry and rationalizing it.

PM: That isn't even CLOSE to being true. America prides herself on accepting people of ALL nationalities. And yeah, when the neighbor of mine moves in from Atlantis, I'll work on learning Atlantisian. But that is a whole lot different than posting election ballots in the same.

And no one is demanding they give up their language OR their culture. Keep 'em. Hell, SHARE 'em. But at some point, the fact remains, we speak English; and, if an individual wants to conduct official business, they should too.

ME:  When you can show me just one official United States Government document that states that the official language of the United States of America is English, I will concede the argument.

Until then, I guess you'll just have to live with your own contradictions.

I sent MY FRIEND a private message: "How badly am I allowed to piss off your friends?" He hasn't responded yet, but ... It's my post; it's my wall; it's _MY_ rules they get to play by.

Considering all the things PM said about "assimilation", he should be just fine with it, right?

Comments

[dreamer-easy.livejournal.com]

I should not have to learn another language to speak to people in America!

IMHO, this is the real issue: the frustration, confusion, embarrassment, and panic when encountering someone you can't readily communicate with. It's not surprising that, for some folks, this turns into resentment of the other person for putting you on the spot and making you feel like an idiot. They should be obliged to speak English well enough that you won't be embarrassed or inconvenienced!

[outsdr.livejournal.com]

The complete lack of empathy is galling ... I don't think I have EVER heard someone follow up the "Speak English in America!" statement with "Man, if _I_ can't understand them, what must it be like for THEM?"

[dreamer-easy.livejournal.com]

All the guide books tell you to try and speak a little French in France, rather than just rudely assuming everyone will speak English to you, and it's true; when Jon and I had our two lovely days in Paris a few years back, I stumbled around in my terrible high school French, and everyone was amused and kindly. A lady in the Louvre cafe nodded sympathetically at my increasingly incoherence and said, "In English?" My gratitude was boundless. :) The same principle applies here in Oz - with a little determination, patience, and humour, you can generally both muddle through. (My "cultured" accent helps - it's more like what you might hear in an English class than the average Strine accent!)

[outsdr.livejournal.com]

I had much the same experience in Paris, although all I had to work with was a phrase book and enthusiasm, lol. I can't imagine how I must have sounded, mangling their language. But they were all awesome about ... although I _still_ think the bored theatre usher who, after I bellowed out "oo ong la twa-let!" didn't even look up at me but just said in a bored voice, "Down the hall and to your left." was an American exchange student.

[dreamer-easy.livejournal.com]

*snrk*

I encountered not one but two cheeky waiters who teased me by correcting my pronunciation and grammar. :)

[outsdr.livejournal.com]

I'd love to go back to Paris some day. I had the best hot dog ever there - walking through a park on the way to the Eiffel Tower, purchased at a little stand. *sigh*


Of course, I also saw a man helping his toddler daughter poop on the sidewalk on the same day, so it wasn't ALL magical.